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Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog
Posted by: Clare Margaret
Date/Time: 18/11/09 09:59:00

John
I'm working my way through them. But I note this. Pain is a subjective experience, difficult ( or impossible) to accurately measure objectively.
Fot the purposes of the studies you quote, they have had to define pain. They have used a definition which requires the subject to have some higher cortical functions
"Because pain is a psychological construct
with emotional content, the experience
of pain is modulated by changing
emotional input and may need to be
learned through life experience".

This understanding of the pain experience was also applied to neonates. Many years ago I was asked to 'assist' at a circumcision of a newborn. My assistance merely required holding the baby very firmly so that it's movements didn't cause the blade to miss its mark.
At all the points in the procedure that one would expect would be most painful the baby responded appropriately ( going rigid as though he was stunned by pain, breath holding, then screaming. His heartrate was also perceptibly increased. And then after the procedure frantically sucking for comfort and crying.)
I was really preturbed at having to essentially hold this child down while he had minor surgry without benefit of anaesthetic.
However the consultant was adamant that he could feel no pain because he had no emotional awareness of what was happening and no memory. He insisted that his crying was a response to being held down rather than the pain of the knife.
Shortly after this, the thinking changed and local anaesthetics were introduced for neonatal circumcision.
As you would expect, the 'pain responses' that 'weren't really caused by actual pain' ceased. The babies tolerated the procedure very well.

So when we have a study which uses a definition of pain which requires a higher level of sentience I can't help feeling that the books are somewhat cooked to start with.
Remember, many of these papers are written by people who also perform TOPs. So naturally there is some human bias in attempting to make an objective assessment of a subjective experience.


Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
Poor Dog09/11/09 20:03:00 Uzma Staite
   Re:Poor Dog09/11/09 21:25:00 Sara Nathan
   Re:Poor Dog09/11/09 23:10:00 Colin Murphy
   Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 00:32:00 Fred Bray
      Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 09:58:00 Becky Bell
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 10:06:00 Uzma Staite
            This may help10/11/09 11:23:00 Colin Murphy
   Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 10:41:00 Emma Daniels
      Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 13:53:00 Dee Cook
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 18:00:00 Sara Nathan
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog11/11/09 09:33:00 Colin Murphy
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 19:36:00 Colin Carroll
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog11/11/09 13:47:00 Dee Cook
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog11/11/09 14:14:00 Sara Nathan
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 00:31:00 Uzma Staite
   Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 01:26:00 Alice Jones
      Re:Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 11:22:00 Dee Cook
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 13:17:00 Colin Murphy
   Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 18:09:00 Uzma Staite
      Re:Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 21:31:00 Eileen Francis
   Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 02:31:00 George Spence
      Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 09:20:00 Clare Margaret
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 15:44:00 Colin Carroll
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 20:34:00 Clare Margaret
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 20:46:00 John Theodore Clark
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 16:58:00 Colin Carroll
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 17:32:00 Jen Morty
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 19:43:00 John Theodore Clark
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 20:21:00 Clare Margaret
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog16/11/09 12:44:00 Dee Cook
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog19/11/09 00:55:00 Alice Jones
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog17/11/09 14:01:00 Alice Jones
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog17/11/09 14:28:00 Clare Margaret
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog17/11/09 15:09:00 John Theodore Clark
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 01:11:00 Clare Margaret
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 09:09:00 John Theodore Clark
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 09:59:00 Clare Margaret
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 10:25:00 Colin Carroll
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 11:09:00 Clare Margaret
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 11:43:00 John Theodore Clark
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 12:16:00 Clare Margaret
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 12:42:00 Clare Margaret
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:01:00 John Theodore Clark
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:10:00 Clare Margaret
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:38:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:43:00 Clare Margaret
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 14:04:00 John Theodore Clark
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:26:00 Sara Nathan
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:34:00 Clare Margaret
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 12:58:00 John Theodore Clark
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:28:00 Clare Margaret
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:58:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 16:15:00 Sara Nathan
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 16:33:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:From squished chihuahua to underage sex18/11/09 16:46:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:From squished chihuahua to underage sex18/11/09 21:49:00 Clare Margaret
                                                            At the risk of flogging a dead chihuahua...18/11/09 22:06:00 Clare Margaret
                                                               Re:At the risk of flogging a dead chihuahua...18/11/09 22:22:00 Clare Margaret
                                                                  Re:Re:At the risk of flogging a dead chihuahua...19/11/09 00:06:00 Jen Morty

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