Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog
Posted by: Clare Margaret
Date/Time: 18/11/09 01:11:00

"First, again, by all means let us debate, but why is this on the thread about squished chihuahuas?"

Well, I did agree that it was a bit tangential, but then Alice revived it.

"Second, Bernard Nathanson's is an obstetrician and gynecologist, and not a specialist in the developmemt of the fetal nervous system"

Is this a red herring, or a non sequitur? Or perhaps it's both.
I said that Bernard Nathanson was a former abortionist ( ergo Obs/gyn) I never implied that he was a neurologist. That doesn't undermine his testimony in the least.
By his own estimate he carried out 75,000 TOPs
(See here: http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html)

He was an experienced OB/Gyn, he was no dummy.
He had a change of heart after seeing the ultrasound of a 12 week gestation TOP.
One doesn't need to be a neurologist to observe pain responses and recognise them as such. Patients who are unable to communicate are assessed for pain by observing heartrate, guarding and grimacing etc. The people assessing them are not required to be neurologists.

If a 12 week fetus can stretch, kick and leap around, trampolining off the walls of the uterus. If it's heartbeat doubles when it dodges the painful stimulus of the suction catheter. If, "when finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide " Then given that it can't actually tell you that it feels pain, it is perfectly reasonable to interpret those responses as being pain responses.

To dismiss Dr Nathansons testimony because he is an Ob/Gyn and not a neurologist doesn't make sense.

To accept the possibilty that even a very small fetus can experience pain is difficult and the implications unpleasant to contemplate.

"specialists believe that unborns cannot feel pain until between the 20th and 29th week"

I haven't yet read the links that you supplied ( I had to sign up to get the BMJ one) but WHERE ON EARTH did you get the information that "specialists" believe pain perception may begin as late as 29 weeks?! That is absolute nonsense. Ask anyone who has worked in a neonatal unit ( like me!) Tiny prem babies are highly pain sensitive WELL before 29 weeks. Reading that kind of rot is as ugly as reading stuff about aboriginals being only partially evolved humans. Honestly. It sickens me every bit as much.

And by the way, annually roughly 3,000 TOPs are carried out after 20 weeks gestation. That's 3,000 babies meeting an end more barbaric than any convicted murderer on death row would meet.

Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
Poor Dog09/11/09 20:03:00 Uzma Staite
   Re:Poor Dog09/11/09 21:25:00 Sara Nathan
   Re:Poor Dog09/11/09 23:10:00 Colin Murphy
   Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 00:32:00 Fred Bray
      Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 09:58:00 Becky Bell
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 10:06:00 Uzma Staite
            This may help10/11/09 11:23:00 Colin Murphy
   Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 10:41:00 Emma Daniels
      Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 13:53:00 Dee Cook
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 18:00:00 Sara Nathan
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog11/11/09 09:33:00 Colin Murphy
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog10/11/09 19:36:00 Colin Carroll
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog11/11/09 13:47:00 Dee Cook
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog11/11/09 14:14:00 Sara Nathan
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 00:31:00 Uzma Staite
   Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 01:26:00 Alice Jones
      Re:Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 11:22:00 Dee Cook
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 13:17:00 Colin Murphy
   Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 18:09:00 Uzma Staite
      Re:Re:Poor Dog13/11/09 21:31:00 Eileen Francis
   Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 02:31:00 George Spence
      Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 09:20:00 Clare Margaret
         Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 15:44:00 Colin Carroll
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 20:34:00 Clare Margaret
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog14/11/09 20:46:00 John Theodore Clark
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 16:58:00 Colin Carroll
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 17:32:00 Jen Morty
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 19:43:00 John Theodore Clark
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog15/11/09 20:21:00 Clare Margaret
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog16/11/09 12:44:00 Dee Cook
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog19/11/09 00:55:00 Alice Jones
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog17/11/09 14:01:00 Alice Jones
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog17/11/09 14:28:00 Clare Margaret
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog17/11/09 15:09:00 John Theodore Clark
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 01:11:00 Clare Margaret
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 09:09:00 John Theodore Clark
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 09:59:00 Clare Margaret
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 10:25:00 Colin Carroll
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 11:09:00 Clare Margaret
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 11:43:00 John Theodore Clark
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 12:16:00 Clare Margaret
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 12:42:00 Clare Margaret
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:01:00 John Theodore Clark
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:10:00 Clare Margaret
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:38:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:43:00 Clare Margaret
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 14:04:00 John Theodore Clark
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:26:00 Sara Nathan
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:34:00 Clare Margaret
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 12:58:00 John Theodore Clark
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:28:00 Clare Margaret
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 13:58:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 16:15:00 Sara Nathan
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Poor Dog18/11/09 16:33:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:From squished chihuahua to underage sex18/11/09 16:46:00 John Theodore Clark
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:From squished chihuahua to underage sex18/11/09 21:49:00 Clare Margaret
                                                            At the risk of flogging a dead chihuahua...18/11/09 22:06:00 Clare Margaret
                                                               Re:At the risk of flogging a dead chihuahua...18/11/09 22:22:00 Clare Margaret
                                                                  Re:Re:At the risk of flogging a dead chihuahua...19/11/09 00:06:00 Jen Morty

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